A diplomat recognized for his unconventional diplomacy and sharp thoughts, Ukraine’s Ambassador to Germany, Andriy Melnyk, has previously described himself as an arms supplier. Now, on this time of conflict, he sees advocacy as the brand new diplomacy, with the duty of getting extra weapons to Ukraine being the order of the day.
In this insightful interview with the Kyiv Post’s Lesia Dubenko, which occurred on the Ukrainian Embassy in Berlin, the Ambassador shares his views on the darkish aspect of human nature, Germany’s dependency on Russia, and the thorny subject of weapons. This leads neatly on to Ukraine’s prospects of EU and NATO membership and the upcoming Herculean activity that Ukraine faces.
[Dubenko] Mr. Ambassador, I’ll start by noting that you just’re fairly vocal and outspoken. Not the typical diplomat or envoy. What’s prime of your agenda proper now?
[Melnyk] Well, with the continuing conflict in Ukraine, the primary activity that every Ambassador has in the meanwhile is to push for the availability of extra weapons, particularly trendy ones. That’s what my small workforce in Berlin is busy with.
[Dubenko] Do you prefer it right here?
[Melnyk] I like Germany, the tradition and the language. In truth, I’ve been working right here now for seven and a half years. Also, since I do know Germany fairly effectively, I believed that by taking this job I’d be capable to transfer some issues ahead for Ukraine.
[Dubenko] Have you all the time been the outspoken sort or is it a not too long ago acquired ability?
[Melnyk] I’ve all the time been fairly outspoken. In the very first days within the job, I began making contact with the press all around the nation. My colleague overseeing press issues, Viktoria Kononenko, has misplaced depend of what number of interviews I’ve finished. Possibly over a thousand. And imagine me, from the very first interview, I obtained suggestions from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, which was – to place it mildly – not very constructive.
[Dubenko] Tell me a bit about your self. What are your achievements and pursuits? What ticks you off?
[Melnyk] I’m a global lawyer, as is my spouse. It’s been the love of my life.
I wrote my PhD thesis and plenty of books on worldwide regulation. Unfortunately, while on this publish, it’s been unimaginable to dedicate any significant time to the sector. Yet, my data of the topic does assist me perceive troublesome issues and discover options.
For occasion, everybody’s speaking about aggression, acts of aggression, genocide and so forth. But few perceive what they imply from the perspective of worldwide regulation.
[Dubenko] Do you may have political ambitions as soon as your tenure right here is over?
[Melnyk] Honestly, I’ve by no means been a member of any political get together. Following Maidan in 2014, I used to be Deputy Minister [for Arseniy Yatsenyuk’s government], but it surely was a brief-lived political project. I get pleasure from being a diplomat as that’s the one subject the place I do know that I can transfer issues ahead. Still, by no means say by no means!
[Dubenko] What would you say you despise essentially the most in human nature and its political extension?
[Melnyk] It’s troublesome to single out one factor particularly. But what I hate right here in Germany is hypocrisy, conceitedness, and that many German politicians used to inform fairy tales and provides empty guarantees. You wouldn’t anticipate Germans to be like that. They’re thought to be trustworthy, hardworking and dependable, however my modest expertise has not all the time confirmed that.
[Dubenko] I feel I do know who you’re alluding to and we’re going to speak about him just a little later. Ukrainian diplomacy was once rather more low-key however has now gone up-tempo. What triggered the change, aside from the conflict?
[Melnyk] This change emerged after the 2014 Revolution of Dignity, the annexation of Crimea and the conflict in Donbas. From my perspective, that was the turning level for diplomacy to turn out to be extra dynamic and unconventional. It’s unimaginable to behave the identical approach diplomats did 200 years in the past, corresponding to in the course of the Congress of Vienna.
Still, the “behind-the-scenes” strategy remains to be vital as selections are in the end taken behind closed doorways. But I’m constructive that with out publicity, this type of diplomacy can’t be profitable.
Ukraine’s Ambassador to Germany, Andriy Melnyk.
[Dubenko] The EU has lastly agreed on the sixth bundle of sanctions that options the a lot-contested embargo on Russian oil. Some are content material but others say ‘too little too late’. What’s your take?
[Melnyk] It’s a difficult concern. We must be grateful to our mates and allies that they’re at the very least progressively increasing the stress on Russia economically. The tempo and the quantity, nevertheless, usually are not one thing we could be happy with.
The sixth bundle comprises many loopholes, which signifies that [Russian President] Vladimir Putin will nonetheless be receiving lots of of tens of millions of euros each day till the tip of the yr, enabling him to finance his horrible aggression towards Ukrainian civilians.
We have been asking our EU companions, proper from day one, to at the very least introduce a moratorium for a few months. It could be a painful step, but it might additionally present Putin the willpower of our European companions, and that they’re able to pay the value themselves for leveraging this stress.
However, the probabilities that we are able to velocity up this course of usually are not very excessive. We’ll be pushing the federal authorities, which is mainly what we’ve been doing daily for eight years. But proper now, fuel remains to be excluded from the controversy as dependency is just too important.
[Dubenko] But it’s a self-inflicted dependency, isn’t it?
[Melnyk] Of course, it’s completely self-inflicted. It’s been a real shock for a lot of that Germany’s economic system has been so depending on Russia.
I do hope this concern could be investigated farther from a journalistic perspective at the very least, particularly Russia’s Bundestag hyperlinks. However, I’m undecided it might occur since too many individuals have been concerned. The complete political elite, the present one included, cemented this dependency.
Still, if the problem is just not investigated completely, Germany runs the danger of creating worse errors sooner or later.
[Dubenko] Is this self-inflicted dependency solely about greed?
[Melnyk] Largely, sure. But it’s extra about pragmatism and a want for affordable vitality assets worldwide.
It’s a scientific error inside the state assemble that trade and financial gamers have had such an incredible affect on politics and proceed to have it.
The core notion of [Der Weg zum] Wohlstand is that prosperity and the will to be wealthier is one among society’s fundamental values. There was a consensus that we achieved a lot – the fourth greatest world economic system – so I’m not accusing the political class but.
But that’s one thing Germany has to look into, i.e. the Putin query and trade’s behemoth affect.
[Dubenko] Lesia: Is this about wealth usually coming on the expense of different individuals?
[Melnyk] Exactly. Let’s take the Nord Stream 2 fuel pipeline for instance. Had it been launched, Ukraine’s pipeline system wouldn’t have been wanted any longer, which was clear from the very first day of the announcement.
Believe me, we underscored this truth for years. Yet no-one wished to hearken to arguments like income loss [for Ukraine] or geopolitical repercussions. No-one cared.
[Dubenko] You’ve criticized Chancellor Scholz on many events, calling him “a sad sausage.” Why so modest on condition that proof is mounting that he’s nonetheless intentionally delaying the supply of arms to Ukraine? It additionally looks as if Germany has given in to Putin’s fuel-for-ruble demand.
[Melnyk] I nonetheless must respect my position as a diplomat.
It’s a difficult path for the Ukrainian ambassador to perform targets right here in Germany. We nonetheless hope that the present authorities will rethink many points and take into account the Zeitenwende – a turning level in historical past – which was a notion coined by Chancellor Scholz on Feb. 28.
Now is the time to ship on that promise to Germans and partly to Ukrainians, because it had been initiated in the course of the ongoing Russian aggression, together with by serving to us with heavy weapons.
[Dubenko]: But Germany hasn’t despatched us any heavy weapons, has it?
[Melnyk] Well, it’s nonetheless in course of. Before the conflict, there was a consensus among the many German elite, political class and society, that no weapons might be despatched to battle areas. It was the primary argument for many years. We managed to vary that precept and overcome that vast hurdle.
So far, Germany has delivered defensive weapons price 200 million euros. It’s not a lot however at the very least it’s a begin.
Now we’re attempting to influence German society that serving to Ukraine with the heavy weapons can also be within the pursuits of Germany.
I’ve feeling that we’ll succeed regardless of the last decade-lengthy inertia. Besides, Germany is among the prime 5 producers of recent weapons. Last yr, the nation exported weapons price greater than EUR 9 billion.
[Dubenko] Where to?
[Melnyk] Many areas. Countries like Egypt, Greece, and the U.S.
[Dubenko] Does Germany assist arms deliveries to Ukraine?
[Melnyk] Yes. Today, there was a political debate within the Bundestag, and Chancellor Scholz has lastly unveiled that he’ll assist us entry one among most trendy air protection methods, despite the fact that we now have not talked about this publicly.
So, going again to your first query, the place the road between public and conventional clandestine diplomacy lies, it’s an instance of that. We pushed this determination behind the scenes, and I’m glad that Chancellor Scholz made this announcement on the primary day of summer season.
[Dubenko] Yes, however will it positively be delivered?
[Melnyk] We’ll be sure that Ukraine receives it within the fall. One should do not forget that weapons take time to be produced and delivered. Things you order now will normally be delivered in 5 years.
So, I hope that we – as in Ukraine – obtain them in October. This signifies that cities like Kyiv and the suburbs will be capable to higher defend themselves from missile strikes.
[Dubenko] Do you assume that Chancellor Scholz is doing this as a result of he’s already dealing with repercussions for his habits? For instance, he misplaced some seats within the North Rhine-Westphalia land.
[Melnyk] Yes, we see that the Social Democratic Party has been shedding assist for the reason that election final fall, as exemplified by two native elections.
I’m proud that one of many greatest political subjects has been weapon deliveries to Ukraine. After all, should you assist Ukraine, you ship weapons. If not, your assist is solely symbolic.
The contemporary announcement about weapons displays what has been occurring in latest weeks, the rise in assist for the CDU/CSU [the center-right Christian-democratic political alliance], and the belief that Ukraine does want weapons. Even the Greens have turn out to be extra outspoken concerning the supply of weapons.
It reveals that there’s no fatigue in relation to the conflict in Ukraine. After all, we have to defeat Russia. The fascist system shall be defeated. Many individuals in Germany perceive it, however they can not but see how that can occur.
[Dubenko] So, they’ll’t think about Russia falling aside?
[Melnyk] Perhaps some do. But for a lot of in Germany, Russia has been too highly effective, particularly because it was a colonial energy right here as soon as, if you’ll. That form of trauma remains to be current, which I can really feel.
[Dubenko; How does this show itself?
[Melnyk] If you go to east Germany, which was dominated by Russia for over 40 years, you’d think about they’re considering the identical approach Ukrainians do as a result of they have been struggling underneath Russian rule.
However, pro-Russian events like Die Linke and even AfD [Alternative for Germany] dominate in lots of federal lands of east Germany. This is one thing I can’t comprehend. These individuals vote for the very system which oppressed them.
It looks as if in east Germany they like to not admit that they have been traumatized and are sympathetic not simply towards Russia, however Moscow rulers as effectively.
[Dubenko] Much has been mentioned concerning the omnipresence of ‘Putinverstehers’ in Germany, but it surely appears to me that the time period may very effectively be translated into a number of different languages, together with French and Italian, however not for instance Danish, Finnish, English, or Polish. What makes Germany and another European nations so mentally depending on Russia?
[Melnyk] In Germany, it’s a troublesome concern since their histories are intertwined, which has a robust affect on how the Germans assume.
Take Catherine the Great. From the angle of Ukraine, she was the one who destroyed the Cossack State and Ukrainian identification. But for a lot of Germans, she was one of the vital profitable native exports to Russia, serving to to construct and modernize the Russian state and create an empire with the same mindset.
Even Tsar Nicholas II’s spouse was a German princess. If you journey to Coburg in Northern Bavaria the place she’s from, you’d have a very totally different view of Russia. It’s as if the 2 states are Seelenverwandte – a German phrase for a soulmate – which makes it so troublesome for society to deal with what’s occurring.
Besides, though events like Die Linke and AfD, for instance, are attempting to distance themselves from Russia, they’re additionally asking what comes subsequent as Russia is not going to merely disappear.
Another issue is Russian tradition, which makes them a part of the European household, in Germany’s world.
I keep in mind when the primary sanctions have been launched and Putin’s regime managed fairly efficiently to persuade Germany and the EU that sanctioning Russia meant sanctioning Russian ballet, Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, and the Bolshoi Theater.
Since Putin lived and labored right here in Germany for a very long time, he knew which buttons to push. And this is among the the explanation why we couldn’t step up sanctions despite the fact that the conflict in Donbas was nonetheless persevering with.
[Dubenko] Let’s contact upon Ukraine’s EU membership bid prospects. It’s been confirmed that EU leaders will overview the bid in the course of the upcoming summit in Brussels in late June. However, it looks as if Ukraine won’t attain candidate standing as a result of just about all the massive nations are towards it and are speaking concerning the accession course of that might take a long time. Why are EU capitals so hesitant on condition that even in the most effective-case situation a quick-observe software will nonetheless take years?
[Melnyk] Political elites in Germany and another EU member states stay conservative. Irrespective of the conflict, they’ve some doubts about Ukraine being a politically European state, developing with many arguments why it shouldn’t obtain candidate standing, despite the fact that it’s essential to grant it.
In Germany, the choice has not been taken but since there’s a whole lot of skepticism on the Chancellery. We’re attempting to influence the Chancellor and his workforce that granting candidate standing doesn’t mechanically imply a promise of accession.
Accordingly, we’d like this standing as a political sign and a proper authorized starting of the accession course of. There have been talks about quick tracks however we stay real looking. We simply want a good course of with none pointless delays, since sadly it suffices for one nation to voice political points and that’s it – you may freeze the negotiation course of for many years. Just take a look at the Balkans.
I nonetheless assume we now have an opportunity. After all, the so-referred to as visitors mild coalition (the SDP, the Free Democratic Party and the Greens) has a coalition deal the place Ukraine’s EU integration concern is talked about, with the Greens brazenly supporting the EU’s open-door coverage.
The liberals and the SDP are, admittedly, extra skeptical. Still, we’re attempting to influence the management of the SDP get together, together with Lars Klingbeil and Saskia Esken. Both have been outspoken on the subject of supporting Ukraine’s EU aspirations, so I feel we now have an opportunity to vary the Chancellor’s stance and push him to take the lead.
So, not simply say that we’re ‘not against it’ however attempting to persuade extra skeptical states like France and the Netherlands. After all, 60% of Germans assist this determination.
That would require management, but I’m positive we’d be capable to succeed. Maybe even in June.
[Dubenko] I hope so. Otherwise, it might imply that Dostoevsky’s novel was dedicated to only one particular person in Germany.
[Melnyk] Yes [laughs].
[Dubenko] Lesia: Does the EU notice that in the event that they don’t grant this standing, it is not going to solely be an enormous disappointment however may have a spillover impact on the battleground? Ukrainian troopers have been very disillusioned with NATO originally of the conflict, and the EU stood out, sending the suitable alerts. Undermining morale in occasions of conflict is a foul concept. Do they perceive this?
[Melnyk] We used these arguments, however I’m afraid there’s a whole lot of indecision. This is just not helped by a pure German tendency for pragmatism. For instance, we regularly hear and do perceive the argument that the EU wants modernizing and streamlining.
Also, should you converse to Germans, they let you know that Germany is among the many greatest web contributors to the EU, and that they need it to operate correctly. So, the argument goes that if the EU offers the inexperienced mild to Ukraine or the Balkan states, what’s going to we find yourself with?
[Dubenko] It looks as if the EU forgot why it began out.
[Melnyk] You’re utterly proper.
We want to offer hope in occasions of conflict. That approach, many individuals who fled would know that Ukraine has a European prospect and would wish to return.
However, the give attention to pragmatism remains to be overwhelming. The notions of prosperity, effectively-being and safety are trumping all different values.
[Dubenko] Peace, as an illustration?
[Ambassador]: Yes, peace. We simply wish to be left in peace.
However, it’s vital that this debate has began. Before the conflict, it was unimaginable to talk about this stuff or ideas like freedom and solidarity. They have been virtually irrelevant to Germans.
[Dubenko] Geldpolitik [money politics] appears to be extra vital. It’s a phrase I coined from realpolitik.
[Melnyk] Yes, it’s time period, I prefer it.
[Dubenko] Let’s discuss NATO. Despite sending some constructive alerts currently, the Alliance just about consists of the identical nations because the EU. Will we ever persuade them to grant Ukraine that Membership Action Plan?
[Melnyk] The MAP is just not a compulsory step. Still, many in Germany assume that Ukraine’s membership prospects are out of attain and that we have to neglect about them. But I imagine, and that is one thing I’ve been attempting to push by the German media, that our possibilities of becoming a member of NATO are larger now.
[Dubenko] How come?
[Melnyk] For many causes.
NATO solely desires to ask new member states if they create added worth, and produce extra safety than much less safety. In our case, everybody feared that Ukraine’s accession to NATO would lead to a conflict with Russia and that German troopers must combat in it. It was a nightmarish prospect for everybody right here.
But after this conflict, and I’m not solely speaking about pleasant Poland or the Baltic States, I imagine there would be the realization that it makes extra sense to have Ukraine within the Alliance, in unison with its military and other people, who’ve proven braveness and willpower to defend their homeland, than to go away it outdoors.
To that finish, I keep in mind there was a ballot in Germany some years in the past, asking individuals what they might do if the Baltic States have been attacked. And I used to be shocked that solely 20-30% would assist serving to them. Perhaps Germany wouldn’t deny the authorized obligation to assist in line with Article 5, however in precisely what approach? The identical approach it ‘supports’ Ukraine with heavy weapons now?
Plus, what does it imply for the Alliance if individuals don’t really feel that they’ve an obligation to defend neighbors which might be a part of this NATO household?
So, if I have been a German, I’d say: ‘We’ve seen how courageous Ukrainians are and the way they’re combating to protect their independence and nationhood, so we’re comfortable to have you ever within the Alliance.’
[Dubenko] Other than Ukraine’s victory, what are you actually trying ahead to?
[Melnyk] I sit up for rebuilding Ukraine. Everyone’s speaking about it but it surely’s a Herculean activity. It took a long time to finish after World War II. It could be one other milestone to see Russian conflict criminals delivered to trial and reparations paid. My dream is to indicate how the nation that suffered a lot due to this horrible aggression could be rebuilt. Perhaps, it can turn out to be essentially the most enticing state in Europe.
Many assume that politics may get in the way in which. But proper now we’re united and we have to show to the world that we’re in a position to rebuild with the assistance of our mates.
[Dubenko] I hope so too. If there’s one factor that Russia is ‘helping out with’ they’re destroying their very own legacy – all these Soviet buildings. I’d like Ukraine to have good, trendy homes and infrastructure.
[Melnyk] Maybe there’s an opportunity.
I’m glad that President Zelensky is already attempting to place this program in place. But if we fail to rebuild Ukraine, there’s a threat that many individuals who needed to flee is not going to return. Then once more, no-one can rebuild it however us. Perhaps we are able to even create paradise cities.
Paris, as an illustration, was once a horrible medieval metropolis. Now, it’s a metropolis that everybody enjoys touring to.
So sure, it’s horrible that this needed to occur underneath such circumstances, however at the very least it offers an opportunity to construct unity for the reason for rebuilding Ukraine.
Just take into consideration what Warsaw regarded like after World War II. It was virtually non-existent. So sure, we have to rebuild each metropolis and village that was destroyed. It’s our likelihood to indicate that we’re not simply in a position to combat, however that we’re a proud nation and we are able to assemble a really perfect state.
I’m positive we are able to handle.
[Dubenko] I’m positive we are going to. Many individuals I’ve talked to wish to return. Whatever the state of affairs, there’s all the time a glimmer of hope.
On that word, thanks for the interview, Mr. Ambassador.
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Germany’s Self-Inflicted Russian Dependency: Interview with Ambassador Andriy Melnyk – KyivPost & More Latest News Update
Germany’s Self-Inflicted Russian Dependency: Interview with Ambassador Andriy Melnyk – KyivPost & More Live News
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